cinepro Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 (edited) In light of the recent speculations on the size of the Church's stock portfolio, this quote has been making the rounds. It does raise some interesting questions. In 1907, the Prophet Joseph F. Smith stood in conference and said the following: Quote Furthermore, I want to say to you, we may not be able to reach it right away, but we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God. I want to live to see that day, if the Lord will spare my life. It does not make any difference, though, so far as that is concerned, whether I live or not. That is the true policy, the true purpose of the Lord in the management of the affairs of His Church. (Emphasis added) https://archive.org/stream/conferencereport1907a#page/n7/mode/2up (page 7, second column) What was President Smith thinking? Is it possible that we could reach that day in 2019? What if we have reached that day and the Church leaders just haven't realized it because they haven't asked? Could we have an Official Declaration 3 on the way announcing the end of tithing due to the blessings of a higher law (i.e. compound interest)? Edited June 1, 2018 by cinepro 3
Jeanne Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 Oh...no day will exist..you will be bled dry...IMO...so shoot me. That day came a long time ago.
Duncan Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 I think BYU investing in Coke machines could see that day coming to a swift end, as long as they keep drinking Coke products!
Exiled Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 Joseph F. Smith was obviously speculating as men do. Bro. Hendrix, former board member of Deseret Trust, related in his interviews with John Dehlin that he wants SLC to become a "little vatican." If the brethren share the same view, tithing won't ever end. The church is a mere dust speck compared to the wealth of the catholic church. So, there are a lot of investments to be made and real estate to develop in order to reach vatican level wealth.
CV75 Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 19 minutes ago, cinepro said: In light of the recent speculations on the size of the Church's stock portfolio, this quote has been making the rounds. It does raise some interesting questions. In 1907, the Prophet Joseph F. Smith stood in conference and said the following: What was President Smith thinking? Is it possible that we could reach that day in 2019? What if we have reached that day and the Church leaders just haven't realized it because they haven't asked? Could we have an Official Declaration 3 on the way announcing the end of tithing due to the blessings of a higher law (i.e. compound interest)? Tithe and fast offering being different from donations, I think he was referring to the end of "donations" (like the recent communique about PEF and TPA, and the former building assessments, etc., maybe even local youth fund-raisers), not the end of tithe and fast offerings. 3
rpn Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 We reached that day a long time ago, no one assesses tithing in the ways they used to do. We decide what we are going to contribute, when we are going to do it. 1
hope_for_things Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 33 minutes ago, cinepro said: In light of the recent speculations on the size of the Church's stock portfolio, this quote has been making the rounds. It does raise some interesting questions. In 1907, the Prophet Joseph F. Smith stood in conference and said the following: What was President Smith thinking? Is it possible that we could reach that day in 2019? What if we have reached that day and the Church leaders just haven't realized it because they haven't asked? Could we have an Official Declaration 3 on the way announcing the end of tithing due to the blessings of a higher law (i.e. compound interest)? Thanks, yeah, I posted this quote in the other thread on finances, but I'm not sure how many saw it. So this is good. I think its safe to say that Joseph F. Smith had a very different idea about what the church should do with vast financial resources than what the current church leaders are thinking. A lot changes in a little over 100 years. 1
strappinglad Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 I thought that tithing was a temporary law in prep for the LoC . 2
clarkgoble Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 32 minutes ago, cinepro said: What if we have reached that day and the Church leaders just haven't realized it because they haven't asked? Could we have an Official Declaration 3 on the way announcing the end of tithing due to the blessings of a higher law (i.e. compound interest)? That ignores predicted expenditures. Wheat and Tares has a good post on this. 2
Storm Rider Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 1 hour ago, cinepro said: In light of the recent speculations on the size of the Church's stock portfolio, this quote has been making the rounds. It does raise some interesting questions. In 1907, the Prophet Joseph F. Smith stood in conference and said the following: What was President Smith thinking? Is it possible that we could reach that day in 2019? What if we have reached that day and the Church leaders just haven't realized it because they haven't asked? Could we have an Official Declaration 3 on the way announcing the end of tithing due to the blessings of a higher law (i.e. compound interest)? If you read the article he seemed to be declaring that the church had achieved the position where they were capable of paying for everything in cash; without any need to use debt. The Church has never put members in a position where donations, of any kind, were not voluntary. Tithing is voluntary and always has been. Today any member may cease to pay, for whatever reason they choose, their tithing. Tithing is not paid if the House of God needs it or not and that has never been the principle. It seems rather ignorant of the history of God's demand for tithes and offerings to think....oh forget it. This is not worth answering. 1
Popular Post JLHPROF Posted June 1, 2018 Popular Post Posted June 1, 2018 D&C 119:4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord I'm guessing Pres. Smith was familiar with the scriptures so whatever he had in mind was probably a little different than an end to tithing. 5
Marginal Gains Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 (edited) He’s dead so his words can be disavowed and deemed to be him speaking as a man. Of course, at the time he said them he was speaking as a Prophet and it was an example of Prophetic Seership. Edited June 1, 2018 by Marginal Gains 1
CA Steve Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 1 hour ago, cinepro said: In light of the recent speculations on the size of the Church's stock portfolio, this quote has been making the rounds. It does raise some interesting questions. In 1907, the Prophet Joseph F. Smith stood in conference and said the following: What was President Smith thinking? Is it possible that we could reach that day in 2019? What if we have reached that day and the Church leaders just haven't realized it because they haven't asked? Could we have an Official Declaration 3 on the way announcing the end of tithing due to the blessings of a higher law (i.e. compound interest)? Obviously President Smith was only talking as a businessman.
Duncan Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: I thought that tithing was a temporary law in prep for the LoC . tithing for the Law of Chastity? ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 2
JLHPROF Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 9 minutes ago, Duncan said: tithing for the Law of Chastity? ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 1
drums12 Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said: He’s dead so his words can be disavowed and deemed to be him speaking as a man. Of course, at the time he said them he was speaking as a Prophet and it was an example of Proohetic Seership. Man you are great at setting up straw men 1
Marginal Gains Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 30 minutes ago, drums12 said: Man you are great at setting up straw men What do you find factually incorrect with my statement? If you don't clean up the bad attitude, you will soon be gone. We will not subject our Mormon posters to a barrage of snarky, mean and mocking jabs. You have enough warnings to know this.
cinepro Posted June 1, 2018 Author Posted June 1, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, CV75 said: Tithe and fast offering being different from donations, I think he was referring to the end of "donations" (like the recent communique about PEF and TPA, and the former building assessments, etc., maybe even local youth fund-raisers), not the end of tithe and fast offerings. He's pretty clear about what he's talking about, and it includes tithing. But just so I'm clear on what you're saying, are you saying that tithing isn't a "donation"? Edited June 1, 2018 by cinepro 1
CV75 Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 18 minutes ago, cinepro said: He's pretty clear about what he's talking about, and it includes tithing. But just so I'm clear on what you're saying, are you saying that tithing isn't a "donation"? It can seem clear to you, certainly. And I also see there are couple of better answers than the one I gave (also indicating that he was not referring to tithing... but you asked what others thought and I shared)! But I don't see tithing (as fast offerings) as a donation but as a covenant with elements of obedience, true religion, consecration and sacrifice. Do I record it on a "donation" slip and on my taxes as a "donation"? Of course I do, but that's just for the paperwork, not the "weightier matters of the law." Donations for me are more like anxious engagement in a good cause (D&C 58:26-29), so if there is no opportunity or need to donate to one cause, there is certainly opportunity to donate to another. 2
Benjamin Seeker Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 4 hours ago, CV75 said: Tithe and fast offering being different from donations, I think he was referring to the end of "donations" (like the recent communique about PEF and TPA, and the former building assessments, etc., maybe even local youth fund-raisers), not the end of tithe and fast offerings. He specifically says “tithes.” 1
Benjamin Seeker Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: D&C 119:4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord I'm guessing Pres. Smith was familiar with the scriptures so whatever he had in mind was probably a little different than an end to tithing. He may not have had this scripture in mind. He does specifically use the word “tithe.” He also mentions the Lord’s storehouse which is where the Lord instruct the “tithes” to be brought in Malachi 3:10, making the allusion pretty clear. 1
kllindley Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said: He specifically says “tithes.” He specifically says tithes in the storehouse as a reason not to ask for donations above what people voluntarily give. Not that the Church will stop asking for tithes. I think there is a lot of historical context that makes this more clear.
Benjamin Seeker Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 16 minutes ago, kllindley said: He specifically says tithes in the storehouse as a reason not to ask for donations above what people voluntarily give. Not that the Church will stop asking for tithes. I think there is a lot of historical context that makes this more clear. I think the obvious meaning of “donations of any kind” includes tithing, but to each their own oppinion. I’m sure some deeper research could turn up more.
Duncan Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 (edited) In 1907 when Pres. Smith said this the church was finally freed from bonds and debts which had plagued the Church for years so it could pay it's own way and not rely on others. I think it was that year he also made a statement about paying off the final bond and the Church was free and clear. It was Pres. Snow that obviously had the tithing revelation and I think Pres. Grant going east to sell bonds and get loans from banks Edited June 1, 2018 by Duncan
cinepro Posted June 2, 2018 Author Posted June 2, 2018 20 minutes ago, Duncan said: In 1907 when Pres. Smith said this the church was finally freed from bonds and debts which had plagued the Church for years so it could pay it's own way and not rely on others. I think it was that year he also made a statement about paying off the final bond and the Church was free and clear. It was Pres. Snow that obviously had the tithing revelation and I think Pres. Grant going east to sell bonds and get loans from banks Here's more info than you ever wanted to know about Heber J. Grant going east to try and save the Church's finances in 1893: Crisis In Zion 1
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